If the Virginia Tech Gunman Was On Meds, Does That Get Him Off the Hook?
Today's news was filled with little else but the terrible tragedy of how a mad gunman opened fire on innocent college students on an American campus. I never dreamt that I would find a personal connection to this nightmare, but hot off the Drudgereport I followed a link that read "Investigators believe Cho at some point had been taking meds for depression..." "What on Earth does Depression have to do with killing people?" I thought, but investigators apparently thought otherwise:
Investigators believe Cho at some point had been taking medication for depression. They are examining Cho's computer for more evidence.
Sources: Virginia Tech gunman left note | Chicago Tribune
I'm not sure what evidence they expect to find about his medical history on his computer. You'd think that they would find that sort of thing in his medicine cabinet. I believe what is really happening here is that they are simply, even desperately, trying to find an answer to the great question "WHY".
Why would such a terrible thing happen? Why would somebody get upset at his girlfriend then remove over 30 random people from this Earth? Many of us want answers; I just don't believe that the diagnosis of Depression is the correct one. However, Depression has been used many times recently to excuse horrible crimes.
Since when did being involuntarily sad excuse violent behavior? Did it start with Andrea Yates, the Texas mother who drowned all five of her children in the bathtub, ages seven and younger? Her defense attornies tried to have her declared insane due to Postpartum Depression. One of her children was five just like my youngest. Have you ever tried to discipline a five year old? I've had four of them and let me tell you they don't sit still for a swat on the bum, nevermind being forced under water. It requires lots of energy to even get five year olds to stand still and look at you when you scold them. When I am depressed, energy is the last thing I have in abundance. Most people, in fact, who have Depression mope about in an apathetic funk, or can't even get out of their beds, nevermind drown a small family of five or, as was with the case today, load up with ammunition TWICE and slaughter fellow human beings indescriminately at TWO separate locations.
Over four million babies were born in America in 2005 (the most recent data published at the National Center for Health Statistics). That's a lot of mothers experiencing Postpartum Depression even if the percentage is as low as 5%. How many of them drowned their own children? For that matter, how many people do you know suffering from Depression who recently loaded up like Rambo and went postal in your community?
Unfortunately, Andrea Yates' community accepted the insanity plea even though she had been convicted previously in an overturned trial. This forever gives Postpartum Depression an ominous side. I suppose it was too horrible for the jury members to conceive that any mother could knowingly murder her children slowly by holding them under water. This despite the fact that two months prior to the terrible deed she had previously filled the tub for that very same purpose. When asked what was within herself that stopped her from doing it that time she simply replied:
Just didn`t do it that time.
CNN.com - Transcripts
Her husband was home then along with the children. When he found her sitting staring by the tub he took her back to the hospital for medical help. Two months later she completed the deed.
I can't say I know what was going through Andrea Yates mind at the time. I can't say I know what was going through Cho Seung-Hui's mind either. However, I do know what it is like to spend years suffering from Depression. I can tell you from my experience that I had an awful lot of choice in the matter. No, I didn't choose to have Depression, but I did choose to let it run its course in me. I chose to wallow in sadness. I chose to mindlessly watch TV and play RPGs for hours on end. I chose to cut myself off from friends and family. I chose to remain miserable. Until one day I decided I had had enough. Meds didn't work. Therapy didn't work. I decided to try a very radical treatment instead; I decided to think positive for a change. I decided to think "Can Do." The transformation wasn't immediate, nor was it miraculous. In fact, I spent many years retraining my mind, but I eventually succeeded and found relief and freedom from the nonstop waves of sadness that crushed my soul.
I discovered years later that there was a name for the self-therapy I had undergone. It was called Cognitive Behavior Therapy. I could have cut years off my recovery if I had only known. But now you know. If you suffer from Depression you don't have to remain a victim. If meds don't work, if the traditional shrink's couch doesn't work, perhaps a CBT's guidance can. You have to make a choice, however. You have to decide to be happy and to conquer sadness. No certified professional or happy pill can do it for you. As with Cho and Andrea, loved ones provided the psychological help, but you know what they say about leading horses to drink.
Cho made choices. Cho made plans. And Cho robbed us of justice because, as with so many mass-murderers, he left us haunted by questions with no comforting answers by taking his own life. Experts will be asking these questions for some time while trying to piece together the events that led up to today. Depression is just one of many ideas being floated around, but it is my opinion that depression is a weak excuse for the horror Cho performed. Unbalanced he may have been, but he knew enough to prepare. He took time to plan it out. That's very un-depressive behavior. Additionally, knowing Cho was Depressed will be small comfort to the families of the deceased. Depression is treatable, even conquerable, but only Cho knows why he made the decisions that he did.
Update: 4/18/07 3:34:53 PM: Apparently, Cho's girlfriend was an imaginary supermodel named "Jelly". This from people who claim to know him, though they also say he was a loner who didn't talk to anybody. Take that for what it's worth. More importantly, I have now learned that Cho was admitted to a psychiatric hospital near Virginia Tech after a stalking incident. The doctor's evaluation, although a little over a year old, was nonetheless illuminating:
"He denies suicidal ideation. He does not acknowledge symptoms of a thought disorder," the doctor wrote. "His insight and judgment are normal."
Update: 4/18/07 4:18:26 PM: I have added a just-released photo of Cho delivered to NBC in his so called "multimedia manifesto". Cho was not a depressive. He was a terrorist. He planned this attack. He even took time to mail a package with his manifesto inbetween killings. Comments below chide me, but I stand by my assessment. Don't blame Depression here folks. That's a disservice to millions of non-murdering people world wide who suffer from Depression.
Comments
Thanks for writing about this... very informative. Especially since I've been impacted by this tragedy so deeply.
Also, I'm extremely glad to hear that you've been helped by CBT! I've tried everything else, seriously, dozens of therapist and dozens of medications. Probably next week, I'll be going to start a voluntary CBT program for 6 weeks. I don't really know much about it. It's all new to me.
But it's actually the reason I've started a blog-- I feel the need to document what's going on with me. I feel like it forces me to deal with things better. Plus, I hope to look back and see improvements.
I can understand Andrea Yates. A mother can't afford to stay in bed all day if her children rely on her for their very existence. They need food, they need attention, without her they can't survive. If caring for them was beyond what she could give, given her mental state, I can understand how that extreme stress coupled with post-partum depression could trigger psychosis.
Don't generalise about mental illness, and don't presume to know exactly what was happening in Cho Seung-Hui's mind - because you can't experience what someone else is going through. It was a tragedy, but you forget that he was a victim too.
I thought it was common knowledge that people who are suicidally depressed will often appear to be focused and even sometimes happy as they plan for their upcoming suicide. I'm just saying that taking time to plan events out is not an indication of non-depressed behavior.
Good luck on the CBT program. I know that it works for some people, such as myself and others who comment on my blog, but it doesn't work for others. The key ingredient I have found is that CBT requires you to take accountability for your own feelings and actions. Some people are uncomfortable with that and just want somebody else to blame. They don't fare well with CBT.
Great comments! Good luck with your blog.
~Douglas
First of all, I am not "forgetting" that psychosis is a symptom of depression. You shouldn't presume to know my mind. Here are the symptoms of depression:
Based on the DSM-IV (1994), the following signs would be observed over a 1-year period:
• Chronically depressed mood occurring for most of the day, more days than not.
• Showing or describing their mood as sad.
• This may be shown as irritability rather than depression
• Poor appetite or overeating.
• Insomnia or hypersomnia.
• Low energy or fatigue.
• Low self-esteem.
• Poor concentration or difficulty making decisions.
• Feelings of hopelessness.
• Low interest .
• Self-criticism, with the self-concepts of being uninteresting, incapable, or ineffective.
Notice violent tendencies are not in the list. What you are referring to is Psychotic Depression, a very different beast than Depression. When I refer to "most people", I am referring to the garden variety Depression listed above, and the same kind targeted by all those nifty television ads showing people moping about and lying on couches.
And, for your reference, stating "most people" indicates a majority but not a totality. That allows for exceptions to the rule. In addition, this blog is part humor, part cheek. You may try rereading my article with that in mind. It seems you have taken offense where none was intended.
As for your comments on Andrea Yates, I worry for you if you can understand her. My wife suffered from postpartum depression after each of her last two pregnencies. She was wacky as a loon some days, but she was always moping about and lacking energy - two criteria vital to a diagnosis of Depression as listed above. There were days she cried for no reason. There were many days every joke I told was taken the wrong way (Oh, that was hell - for both of us, the poor dear. I'm a compulsive joker). But there weren't any days that she plotted our children's death because she thought they were possessed by Satan. That, as I have been trying to point out, is NOT an attribute of Depression. It is usually in the realm of Schizophrenia and Psychotic Depression.
Andrea Yates was a very sick individual who was not receiving the treatment she needed. They treated her psychotic episodes with injections but stopped medication when she seemed to return to normal. Clearly she suffered from delusions, but also planned out how to kill her children. And was careful not to do it when her husband was home to save them. I side with the first jury. She knew right from wrong and chose wrongly. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.
As for your last point, don't presume you can reprimand me. You chide me for presuming while making grand presumptions about me. It's rather silly of you. You also didn't read my article very well. I clearly stated towards the conclusion that I cannot know what was going through Cho's mind. However, judging from my personal experience, something you feel is invalid because your experience is different, Cho may have had psychological issues but plain ole Depression wasn't the culprit that caused him to act out violent fantasies. There was something else going on there. At the same time there was also plenty of opportunity for him to make choices. Applying for a weapon permit and purchasing a Glock are not the acts of depressed individuals.
Cho was not a victim. It is insulting to the families of the deceased to label him as such. My heart goes out to them as well as Cho's parents. They were so traumatized by the news that they've been hospitalized. Cho was a 23 year old adult who allowed himself to fantasize violently and revel in it. As Buddha says, with our thought we make the world.
All that being said, I am glad you took the time to post your comments. I love open discussions and welcome all opinions. I just may not agree with them.
~Douglas
There's a link, to be sure. Depression may open the door. Trauma may trigger emotional upheavals in our life, but we still are free agents to choose. This much I will claim I know of his mind. We all know right from wrong, but not all of us choose wisely. I believe I may need to expand upon this in another article. I have solid reasons for believing as I do, but the comments section isn't the best place to share those reasons.
At any rate, planning suicide is one thing. Planning mass-murder is another. Cho moved outside the realm of average Depression into a new diagnosis. This is the point I'm making. Depression does not account for his behavior. Psychosis does. We shouldn't let people associate Depression with these horrific acts because the majority of depressives aren't mass-murderers.
Thanks for your comments.
~Douglas
I was reasonable in what I said, and you responded in a nasty, condescending way. Not very mature.. huh?
As more evidence is revealed we are learning that this was no suicide-murder but the actions of a man who considered himself a martyr. A man who consciously planned out the murder of 32 fellow human beings. I believe it is unconscionable to paint Cho as a helpless victim of Depression. I also believe it is abhorrent to sympathize with Andrea Yates and ignorant to confuse Postpartum Depression with Psychotic Depression.
Although we disagree on these matters, I thank you for returning to further comment on this issue.
~Douglas
Everyone seems to be getting overanxious and concerned much too quickly. I've already read articles mentioning removing depressed students from classes in college. Discouraging people from getting the help that they need is not a good way to deal with these issues.
I agree that Depression and whatever was happening to Cho was not simple depression. Something was wrong with him that probably could never be treated. I believe the same for Andrea Yates. No human being plans to murder other people just because they are stressed out or because they feel that too much is expected of them. Human beings are resilient creatures. They often find other ways to deal with such things. Suicide is sometimes how they deal with issues, but people don't just kill other people because of daily stresses.
Murder is something that most of us cannot and will not ever comprehend. But, that is by no means saying that a murderer should not be seen as anything other than a murderer.
As far as I can tell from current reports (which may be inaccurate, I don't know yet) Cho wasn't depressed--not in the classic sense most people mean of overwhelming sadness and bleakness brought on by a chemical imbalance in the brain. Cho was psychotic. The evidence I've seen suggests that he planned this massacre months ahead of time. He rebuffed every attempt at friendship or help from classmates, teachers and mental health professionals because he desired to hate the people around him, wanted to nurse the anger he would later draw on to kill many dozens of them before taking his own life. The contents of the long screed he left behind and the DVD he sent to NBC News between the murders suggest that he was mentally unsound, but the fact that he had the presence of mind to mail that DVD after having killed two people and on his way to kill 30 more suggests that, even mentally unstable, he was capable of somewhat rational thought.
Cho was not a victim. The people he shot, killed and maimed are his victims. The people who have lost loved ones are his victims. His family are his victims. To suggest anything else is to turn away from the face of evil because we find it too unsavory to stomach, and to try to make excuses for it. There is no excuse for this.
My heart goes out to his family, the victims' families, and all the students at VA Tech (and schools and colleges everywhere, with the senseless copycat bomb threats). Lord have mercy on us all.
I disagree with your definitions of depression - the DSM is a guideline for diagnostic purposes, that's all. I never said that depression was responsible for his actions.
Of course he is responsible, I just believe that it is not a black and white issue of "Cho is evil" or not. Somebody who is suffering a mental illness to the point of suicide is a victim; unfortunately he happened to take a lot of people down with him.
I feel incredibly for the people whose lives, hopes and futures were snatched from them to unjustly. But I also feel for the person who was driven to a point where they felt they had to commit such atrocious acts.
But I think it's a bit petty for us to be angry that there is speculation on whether or not he had depression. Public awareness and acceptance of mental illnesses is important, but whether he had depression or schizophrenia or was simply a masochist, he is going to make someone look bad. At least they are acknowledging that mental illness exists.. that's like a major breakthrough.
Soozcat ~ That's a very insightful statement you made about his prescription and his psychiatrist. If he was truly unbalanced and not simply a mean, ornery, hateful person, then having the wrong prescription could have been the fatal flaw in this whole fiasco. I agree with you that there is no excuse for this, however. I don't hate him, but I don't believe we should make excuses for him either.
On a side note, have you heard what his Grandfather said of him? Doesn't sound like his family thought very highly of him. It seems his family blames this on autism. I'm not sure that's going to fly either, though the diagnosis fits his misfit social existence. No diagnosis is going to explain his actions satisfactorily. The boy thrived on hate. It gave him focus and purpose, then he acted on it.
Thanks for commenting.
Claire ~ Wonderful insight. Thanks for sharing. I fear that copycats may become an issue because NBC chose to air Cho's multimedia manifesto. That upset a lot of the families of the victims. My heart goes out to those people as well.
Rose ~ You know something, Rose. I'm starting to like you. You make me laugh, and that's a good thing. You might have misread some of my intent. This is text, after all, and humor, sarcasm, even cheek, doesn't translate well, but if you're going to open salvo on me I'm going to return fire. It's a weakness of mine, I admit. However, I don't feel I ridiculed you, though I did return criticism.
At any rate, you and I are just going to have to disagree on this. I can't see anybody who plans a murder, takes time to rant about it on video, takes photos of himself mimicking his favorite cult slasher flick, then mails it to a news station before chaining people into a building and mowing them down like grass as a depressed individual. Psychotic, yes, but not depressed. And I'm not willing to give him any sympathy. I don't hate him, but I can't identify with him in the slightest. People made fun of me mercilessly in high school. They mocked me, they laughed at me, they beat me up, they vandalized my property and that was just the teachers. No, I'm kidding. But they were no picnic in the park either. I hated a lot of people for a long time, but when I was 23 I gave it up because it wasn't making me happy. A steady diet of hate is bad for the soul and slowly kills us, and I wanted to be alive. Depression became an obstacle for me, not a lifestyle.
I think you should get an award, however, for the most upbeat way of looking at this situation. To think of public awareness of mental illness as an upside to this massacre is simply amazing to me. I agree with you on this point, but I have to admit it gave me a chuckle. My thoughts on this massacre have been so very far away from looking at upsides. ;)
Anonymous ~ Hey, thanks for commenting. You're not going to like what I have to say in response, but I appreciate you taking the time to share your feelings.
While I appreciate your input I think I've got Cho on this. I'm 40 years old. I've been depressed since I was fifteen. Cho was 23 years old. That means I've been depressed longer than Cho was alive. I think that gives me a WEE bit of authority to think as I do. Honestly. Who are you to dictate what level of depression I suffer from?
There seem to be a handful of depressives out there who feel compelled to defend Cho as some sort of kindred spirit. I think you people are nuts, but that's not an official diagnosis. ;) It is as if you folks feel that an attack on Cho is an attack on yourselves. As if letting people dismiss depression's part in this horror story somehow diminishes your struggles. I don't believe it is very healthy to let yourself identify with a mass-murderer.
Besides, as I and others have stated here, there is a large difference between Depression and Psychotic Depression. My point to this article was to counter the attempt by others to lump the two together. Basically, I did not want Cho associated with me in any way, shape, or form. We now know from Cho's family that he suffered from Autism, which explains his emotional detachment from others. However, you are mistaken to think that nobody extended a hand of friendship to Cho over at Virginia Tech. Cho rebuffed their attempts at friendship. He isolated himself.
I can't emphasize this enough. Cho was a free agent who chose to act of his own accord. Nobody forced him to fantasize violently. Nobody forced him to be alone. Nobody forced him to kill those people. Whose fault is it that Cho didn't have a real girlfriend or friends? Cho's. Whose fault is it that Cho suffered alone? Cho's! Help was provided for him. Many people offered a hand of friendship. But Cho chose to hold onto his perceptions. He shaped the world he lived in by his very thoughts - violent and sick as they were.
And as for Depression explaining what Cho did, do you have Depression? (I don't know. You don't state one way or the other) I do (even if you discount it). My mother does. I have several friends who do. None of us have been mass-murderers lately. I'm willing to bet that neither have you. Let's not be hasty in pinning blame on anything other than Cho for Cho's crimes. We are all accountable for our actions, even those of us who are crazy.
Thanks for commenting everyone. What a vigorous discussion. You've made my day. ;)
~Douglas
I think he deserves a very small amount of pity, but he's the one who made the choice, regardless of what he said on that video. He chose to fire each and every shot. No one was mind controlling him. I think Depression may have been a small part of it, too, but it certainly didn't cause him to make the choice.
Beware of Korean Americans not properly nationalized
My references are interesting as well.
I think you just accidentally backed up my point: "A steady diet of hate is bad for the soul and slowly kills us". You rose above it, as have many people. Cho obviously could not cope with being hated, and got 'eaten' by it and ultimately hated everybody else.
I tend to look at mental illness like a spectrum of colours. Say that depression, diagnostically, is blue. Nobody can be suffering from perfect blue; they'll be suffering from various shades of cerulean, indigo, aqua, royal blue, et cetera. Some will be exhibit shades of other colours, and some will be a rainbow mess of splotches. Cho's colours would be a mess, but there would be depression in there, but definitely amongst things like Paranoid Psychosis.
Basically, my point is that nobody will ever have the same condition as you, nor can you 'know' what it is like to experience a certain illness because it is widely different for everybody. So we can't say, based on our experience or our relatives, that people with a certain condition just don't do things.
Thanks for the 'Award' though... it's sort of always been my approach to any situation to assume the innocence, goodness and honesty of people. Only when they have broken that ideal in a way that can't possibly be explained will I change my mind.
In my 'garden variety' depression, I experienced psychosis and some pretty nasty things. Imagine being absolutely convinced that there was another room in your house that everybody was lying to you about, and trying to get in there because that is the only place where you could catch a plane from to your 'real home' and your real family, because you are convinced that your family is trying to kill you... I truly believed this one night when things were particularly bad, and had to be physically restrained by my Dad who I kicked and screamed at - I was so convinced I was right. This sort of thing happened a handful of times during my worst depressive episode, sometimes it lasted a night, othertimes I was on another planet for a whole week.
(I'm muuuuuch better now, by the way!)
My point is that I had my experience of severe depression coupled with psychosis and paranoia, and I know that it was shocking and horrible. I'm not presuming to know what Cho was going through, but if it was worse than what I experienced, I can certainly understand how he could truly believe he was doing what was right.
I think that sometimes we try (need) to make sense of things that we don't understand. Something horrible happens and we (society) try to find some explanation so that the world is somehow easier to accept, easier to live in, easier to swallow. We're looking for an easy answer to the "why" question.
It's easy and quick to grab on to the fact that kid was depressed and on medication and use those facts to make some correlation to what happened.
BTW, long time no see. Hi there!
Cho on the other hand was motivated by hatred of those who bullied him. Although he may have delusively convinced himself of his narcissistic view of reality, I don't believe he was psychotic in the clinical sense. He's just the product of a mind corrupted by his own festering bitterness--a sociopath who knew what he was doing--fantasizing about and seeking the pleasure of getting revenge. He was the author of his own hateful thoughts. Unfortunately, in the pattern of many serial killers, he pathologically misdirected his revenge on innocents who reminded him of others who directly tormented him. His actions were therefore criminal.
No, I didn't choose to have Depression, but I did choose to let it run its course in me. I chose to wallow in sadness. I chose to mindlessly watch TV and play RPGs for hours on end. I chose to cut myself off from friends and family. I chose to remain miserable. Until one day I decided I had had enough. Meds didn't work. Therapy didn't work. I decided to try a very radical treatment instead; I decided to think positive for a change. I decided to think "Can Do." The transformation wasn't immediate, nor was it miraculous. In fact, I spent many years retraining my mind, but I eventually succeeded and found relief and freedom from the nonstop waves of sadness that crushed my soul.
I couldn't agree with you more. It's important to remind us that we can all pull ourselves out of it if we choose to, and that failure to do so is nothing more than pure laziness. Saying, "I can't do that because I'm depressed" is nothing more nor less than an excuse for poor behavior.
In other words, we can just pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps.
Thanks for your insight -- now I can have a heaping helping of guilt to go with depression. Please may I have a cherry on top?
People who do not shake off their Depression, however, are either forced to a life of suffering, or medication, or both. I write to those who find no relief from medication. They are the ones who really suffer. One group tells them to "just" snap out of it without any thought as to how that is accomplished, and the other group defensively attacks because they can't function without medication and are hostile to those who suggest they try.
You are correct that you can pull yourself up by your own bootstrap. There's no "just" about it, however. It takes a lot of work, but is ultimately rewarding. I am thankful for Cognitive Behavior Therapy and my God who lead me to it, even before I knew what to call it.
With your thoughts you can change your world, Anonymous. Your thoughts are snide and mocking. I can only imagine what a dark, painful world you live in, but it doesn't have to be that way.
Now, here's your cherry.